(no subject)

[thebitterguy]

You know, it's odd, but maybe I just hang around with the wrong people, but I've never met anyone who was a comics fan who actively disliked Alan Moore's work in general, or Watchmen specifically. Of course, now thanks to the internet you can find anyone.

Anyway, I think it was Journalista who linked to a few pieces of people being angry about The Killing Joke. The biggest one is this one. Checking some of the other posts, I find that the poster, philippos42, has been a common thread in the discussion.

One of the more interesting posts was this one where they specifically take Watchmen to task.

I don't think they read the book too closely (obvious, since they boast about only reading it once), because it really doesn't have any characters in it who could be considered to be undamaged, gay or straight, with the possible exception of the original Night Owl, who ends up being murdered.

Comments

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

I fail to find credence in the argument of someone who says The Killing Joke portrays Bruce as 'not only gay, but gay in the worst possible way'.

Barbara is a much stronger character as Oracle than she ever was in the tights.

I loved Killing Joke. And Watchmen. Perhaps the writer would prefer to stick with Adam West's Batman.

[thebitterguy]

I've never actually read a story with Oracle in it. That's kind of strange.

Although I did watch a few episodes of Birds of Prey.

[ratmmjess.livejournal.com]

You can find lit. geeks who hate Shakespeare (Tolstoy/Dickens/Raymond Carver), music geeks who hate the Beatles (Rolling Stones/Who/Kinks), art geeks who hate Rodin/MIchelangelo...enh. *shrug* I was tempted to comment about Alan's feelings about Killing Joke and the crippling of Batgirl, but decided it'd be talking out of school. As for the Moore-hater, well, he can fulminate all he wants. I'm warm and cozy in the conviction that I'm right and he's wrong.

[thebitterguy]

Heh. And now you're teasing. Hasn't he said that he doesn't particularly like Killing Joke?

[ratmmjess.livejournal.com]

Dammit, I never wanted to be the teasing guy. Sorry.

(Pretty much, yeah).

[madmanofprague.livejournal.com]

It's like Picasso. You can hate the work, but the medium bears his indelible mark. Alan Moore is a big clomping boot on the face of comic fans forever, or something.

[thebitterguy]

That's the greatest metaphor for Alan Moore ever.

[uniquecrash5.livejournal.com]

I was compellled to reply to the Killing Joke post.

I think that Moore's point was that Batman is a psycho. And I think he is, if you try to think of him as an actual real person.

[absinthe-dot-ca.livejournal.com]

It's been years since I read either The Killing Joke or The Watchmen, so I'm not going to comment directly on how miserable a human being Alan Moore must be (or not). However, I do get the sense from philippos42's posting that his real, deep-seated problem with A.M. is that philippos42 still seems, on some level, to think of comics as "kids stuff", and as such A.M. should be strung up for daring to show kids that the world is a messed-up place where right and wrong are not always obvious choices, much less easy ones. I dunno, but maybe I'd rather my kid learn those lessons while I'm there to explain the lessons to him, rather than have him (or her) thrust into the cold, dark world completely unprepared for what will come. Assuming I ever have a kid, that is.

[philippos42.livejournal.com]

Actually, it's more an issue with Moore's editors, who insisted on Batman following a childish morality while his villains were amped up from unserious cartoon to wild serial killer.

There are ways to write vigilante-type characters as adults, but Batman became more an adolescently-conceived caricature after that.

As for Moore, it's more that he went to the well of, "darken up previously existing characters in arbitrary ways designed to be grotesque," so many times, both before & after that. He's not unique, Howard Chaykin did it too, but Moore unfortunately, is a good enough writer that his examples have become highly influential, & are imitated shoddily by those who mistake his gross-out elements for craft.

Thanks...

[absinthe-dot-ca.livejournal.com]

Wow. Thank you for providing an insightful reply without descending into the realm of flames. I'm not being funny here - too often people just arbitrarily take things whatever way they see fit and go off the deep end. Instead, you've managed to make your opinion more clear to me, and I appreciate that.

I can see your point. Basically, you're saying that Moore is a good writer, but he tends to use the gross-out card so much that other people assume that's what makes him a good writer. They're mistaking a tool he overuses for the heart of his style, if I'm reading you correctly.

As for Batman, I haven't read anything with him in it in years - there were some good books back in the 90s (Year One, The Dark Knight Returns, etc.) that showed potential, but I can't comment on anything written this century.