So, what eats a Mongoose?

[thebitterguy]

It's no secret that I've been fairly disappointed with Mongoose's B5 products.

Okay, let me rephrase that. Mongoose has made B5 products, and I've been fairly disappointed with most of their products I've read, including those B5 books.

God, to think I own that much Judge Dredd material. If anyone asks, it's for a Hero game. Or Savage Worlds. Or Top Secret SI. And I must constantly fight my desire to buy Paranoia books, but that's mostly because I still have oodles of '80s era stuff I'll never use.

Now, I don't have the same level of distrust of the company that many people have (I guess I'm just a good person), but I still think any organization capable of producing the Earthforce sourcebook deserves to have their buildings burned and their lands sown with salt.

So, this discussion on the B5 newsgroup contains only minimal amounts of Schadenfreude for me. YMMV.

In it, Matt Sprange attempts to defend his recent statements on a B5 podcast which apparently implied that Joe Straczynski was involved with the upcoming Mongoose B5 novels (which I will admit have filled me with dread initially, a feeling not eased any by the announcement of famous actress Claudia Christian writing one of them) even though it's been established fairly well that he wouldn't, although I have no idea if $500 per book is a good rate for that kind of thing or not.

The result of Mr. Sprange's post is a rather firm factfinding attempt from the assembly.

Comments

[tfbretz.livejournal.com]

I don't have a lot of direct hate for Mongoose. But I do have a lot of distrust based on things they've done to friends of mine. The one big RPG project I was working on got spiked when the creator went off to work for them because he needed the steady gig and the thing we were working on fell afoul of their non-comp clasue.

On the other hand, the first printing of Conan was abominable. And they failed to mention the corrected "Pocket Edition" was missing more than just the artwork until it was out in the marketplace. An atvertising error, they assure us. And let's not forget the plagiarized map fiasco in one of the Conan supplements. Certainly, that was the cartographer's bad, but their editorial people didn't catch it.

Now this B5 novel nonsense.

I find it all frustrating, because I'd really love to support the new edition of RuneQuest, which actually has Steve Perrin doing paper and pencil RPG work for the first time in eons, but I just can't throw any money their way in good conscience.

The Earthforce book was just offensive.

[normanrafferty.livejournal.com]

Mongoose is everything that's wrong with tabletop RPG publishing.

[mearls.livejournal.com]

The good thing about Mongoose, for me at least, was that it was always clear that they were slick about business stuff. I mean, it's not like Matt hides what he's up to. On some level, and looking back at companies that played the "good 'ole RPG folks" line and completely screwed people over, there's something to be said for that. When you work for Mongoose, you know what you're getting into.

I think his flaw is that he's a little too eager to flaunt his success. I get the sense that he doesn't do things only because they're good for Mongoose, but because he can go on WZL and brag about his new car, his backlist sales, etc.

In this case, it's coming around to bite him in the ass.

[thothmeister.livejournal.com]

500 bucks to write a book, even a media spin-off, is insulting, pure and simple.

A novel can take up to a year to write and polish off, and is a minimum of 70,000 words when done.

If I'm calculating right, they are offering around 1.4 cents a word for something that would normally get an advance larger than the final fee.

[viktor-haag.livejournal.com]

...which actually has Steve Perrin doing paper and pencil RPG work for the first time in eons...

If you do some poking around on the 'net (for example, the RQ-Rules mailing list) I believe you'll find out two things that may alter your opinions: (a) Steve Perrin has been doing RPG work prior to any association with Mongoose: see this webpage (http://www.perrinworlds.com/SPQR.html) in particular; (b) I don't know the details, but I believe that Mongoose and Steve had nasty-ish spat a while back, to the point where folks on the RQ-Rules list have been making "boycott!" noises regarding Mongoose's RQ, because "they treated Steve so abominably".

Again -- I really don't know the details of (b), and I haven't been paying all that much attention to the threads on this subject. I remember what the Columbia Games v N Robin Crossby flamefests were like, and I have no wish to dive into a similar kettle of fish.

So, in the end, you may decide to not feel so frustrated over supporting Mongoose's RQ.

I will also point out that Chaosium has a new edition of Deluxe Basic Role Playing (say that ten times fast!) in playtest currently. I believe they intend to print 'er up in a nice edition once it's done. DBRP is basically RQIII as a base, then changing it based on all the various incarnations of BRP we've had in the past to keep the good bits and pass over the bits which didn't work out so well.

[(Anonymous)]

Don't be so hard on the 'Goose, Justin. Sprange *did* offer JMS an extra George if he'd carry his bags for him.

--Your cobra-esque pal,
T.C. Badass

[waiwode.livejournal.com]

Ever since the legions of plain brown books capitalizing on d20/ogl Mongoose has always been kind of the shifty half-brother of a company like Green Ronin. That being said, although I avoided the onslaught of "extra kewl powerz" rulebooks, Mongoose has caught my eye, and my wallet, a time or two, and I haven't regretted it.

A) I didn't really like B5 enough to even bother with sourcebooks, but I did like their handling of the core book more than The Babylon Project. And they dealt with hit-point inflation in a way fairly similar to how GoO's Game of Thrones did, and I approve.

B) I really like Mongoose's Paranoia. They've incorporated a lot of really interesting 90's stuff ... I thought that bidding for mission equipment on C-bay was inspired ... and they've really made it viable for long-term play yet still fun. Although nothing matches the kill-fest of Zap!-style play.

C) I am eagerly drooling over the thought of RuneQuestIV. You don't even know.

D) Although I prefer Iron Heroes to Conan for my Swords & Sorcery d20 action, I really liked the magic system in Conan. It felt like a good simulation of the genre to me.

E) I agree, their handling of the entire B5 License thing is bad news, sucks, is dirty pool, et. al., and I know that this isn't the first time bad news, etc and Mongoose have travelled hand-in-hand. Honestly, I'm capable of shrugging and moving on, maybe just because my intellectual property isn't worth a pile of soiled tissues, or maybe just because I'm monumentally naïve. Or both!

Doug.

[normanrafferty.livejournal.com]

Mongoose abuses talent. They recently had a "contest" where they would assign 30,000 words to ingenues and have them write on spec, then would consider buying it later if it was what they wanted. Which brings us to the next point ....

Mongoose has horrible quality control. The artwork in the Judge Dredd and Paranoia books was scanned improperly. A Conan book recently appeared that not only had the wrong map, but it was actually a copyright-infringing download from Wizards of the Coast! And the B5 Earthforce book has gotten heaps of criticism for its sweeping, racist generalizations. Which brings us to ...

Mongoose epitomizes 'buyer beware'. If you spend more than 10 minutes arguing over how a rule in a Mongoose book is supposed to work, you've spent more time than the designers did. If you're expecting play-testing of any kind, it's not there. Their books are generally written by whoever showed up that day to work 'on spec' for rates as low as free. And don't expect any statements of apology from Mongoose staff -- even the Conan fiasco of using an illegal download as official art wasn't their fault.

thebitterguy might be able to tell you more about Mongoose's business practices -- I'm just a consumer. I just know what they try to put in my hands.

[tfbretz.livejournal.com]

1.4 cents a word? Oh, that's their rate for seasoned professionals.

You can fool some of the people all of the time.

[normanrafferty.livejournal.com]

I think it's a shame that flaunting abusive business practices could be considered a "good thing".

To look at a Mongoose product is to wonder what it would've been like in better hands. Life's too short for bad games.

[mytholder.livejournal.com]

Er...do you mean Earth Alliance sourcebook, or EarthForce sourcebook?

'cos I wrote the latter, and while I'm not saying it's the best book ever (or even the best book I've ever done), I don't think it warrants arson and/or salting of my earth.

You've more of a case if you mean the former book, but personally, I feel like that's judging the entire World of Darkness based on the Gypsies book.

[athelind.livejournal.com]

I suppose that, technically, "slick" is a synonym for "slimy".

[thebitterguy]

It's entirely possible I mean the Earth Alliance one. I cannot check, as it was lost when my igloo collapsed in the recent thaw.

[tfbretz.livejournal.com]

What he said. I can't keep 'em straight. Whichever one looked like the companion volume to Col. Jingo's Great Big Book Of Untrustworthy Foreign Types.

[mytholder.livejournal.com]

I shouldn't reply, really, but...

As far as the talent abuse goes - I've been working for Mongoose as a full-time freelancer for three years now. In that time, I'd have absolutely zero problems with them. They've paid on time, given me raises, been reasonable to deal with, and have had no problem with me travelling around Europe with my laptop. As long as I get my stuff in on time, it's all good. The pay rate isn't bad for the rpg industry, and it's a fun job.

Quality control - well, I'm just a writer. And I'm even less happy with the Earth ALLIANCE book than you are. (I wrote the EarthForce book, which is a totally different book, and has no sweeping racial generalisations other than calling the Minbari a lot of names.)

There is playtesting, and I do spend more than ten minutes thinking about my rules, thank you very much. The books are generally written by staff writers, not whoever shows up that day.

And I have no problem apologising for anything that I personally screwed up. :)

Yes, the company has produced some utter crap. Most companies have done so, at some point in their lifespan.

But 'everything that's wrong with tabletop rpg publishing'? No.

[thebitterguy]

I don't know where Vic's reply went, but according to his first post on the issue, Joe said they wanted him to "asked if I could help come up with some stories for them, or provide material from myh notes, proofread the manuscripts, make corrections, maybe write an intro, and do lots of other stuff".

It certainly sounds like they were trying to get him to do a developer/editor's job on the books. That's not exactly the same as writing the books, but it's more than someone as busy as him would do for five bills.

[thebitterguy]

Wow. I'm surprised he doesn't get a chorus of "hey, big spender!" wherever he goes.

[adamjury.livejournal.com]

Fandom scares me.

[thebitterguy]

I would think you'd have seen everything by now.

[freeport-pirate.livejournal.com]

That's the amazing thing. Just when you think it can't get any worse, it does. See the recent events in World of Warcraft, when the friends of a player who had died in real life tried to hold in-game funeral for her and a rival guild showed up at the event and ruthlessly killed and looted the mourners' characters. Oh, and then recorded the whole thing so they could brag about it. Nauseating.

[viktor-haag.livejournal.com]

I don't know where Vic's reply went...

::blush::

I decided to delete it, and the one asking why Mongoose was such a bad examplar of RPG companies, because after re-reading them I thought (a) they sounded a bit pompous, and (b) they were more likely to contribute to flamage than actual content.

...but it's more than someone as busy as him would do for five bills...

Yep; I can see that. I can tell you that my hourly rate wouldn't buy Mr Sprange a lot of editing/development time for 500 bucks, and I haven't got a reasonably successful TV series with wads of media tie-ins on my resumé. 8)

On the other hand, I also felt that I didn't care for the tone on either side of this argument, and (like the Crossby v Columbia spat) I really would rather that it hadn't happened in public. Why do spats like this so often get taken to usenet? ::sigh::

[viktor-haag.livejournal.com]

...Although I prefer Iron Heroes to Conan...

I hear you. Mind you, the principle reason I picked up Conan was for the setting-as-game-setting details, and not for the mechanics.

If Iron Heroes had come along before Conan, I might have tipped in the other direction.

[uhlrik.livejournal.com]

It's nothing a bit of judicious mass fanocide wouldn't fix.

[viktor-haag.livejournal.com]

See? This, and events like this, really make the academic in me stand up and say "hmmm... there's a really cool research project under this kind of behaviour", and I get yearnings about going back to grad school.

Without condoning this kind of behaviour (which I agree appears a bit odious), I can't help but wonder if the game itself doesn't anticipate this kind of behaviour: how exactly does the structure of the game (the "rules", the setting, the reward/benefit system) encourage, and perhaps even "demand", these kinds of in-game outcomes?

Then I pinch myself and realize I'm much better off working for a regular paycheck... 8)

[waiwode.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on both counts. In fact, my digging the magic system was somewhat of a surprise to me.

Doug.

[sixteenbynine.livejournal.com]

FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS?

I've written four-page articles that have garnered me FOUR TIMES that much.

I think most of the people who posted in this thread have already said what I need to say in some other form, though.

[adamjury.livejournal.com]

It would be far more interesting if there was actual video of these people licking the shit from JMS' heels.

[thebitterguy]

Thats... uh... That's pretty fucking lousy. Man. It's like the whole 'it's just a game' excuse taken a dozen steps too far.

[thebitterguy]

Yeah, it's weird when people like someone's stuff.

[thebitterguy]

I will admit, as well, that my experience with MG is based mostly on work from a few years ago. I don't doubt that the writing on the B5 line has increased measurably (and, this isn't a snipe at you at all, it's hard to imagine it NOT improving).

[dawgstar.livejournal.com]

Mongoose gives me Paranoia XP, so they're fine in my book (though it doesn't seem like they do much more than just publish the books). Still, this little behind-the-scenes look was kind of interesting.

I do point out for amusement's sake I was shocked to have found Sprange wrote a tactics article in White Dwarf some years ago. Apparently he had a nice Sisters of Battle army.

[normanrafferty.livejournal.com]

I still stand by my reply. I can consolidate all of it by saying that how a company can get on with such egregiousness and still remain popular because enough folks get enough of what they want is exactly what's been wrong with the RPG industry for years. There's a reason Knights of the Dinner Table has so much material.