Well, that's interesting

[thebitterguy]

I'm sure many of you remember Chain of Command, the two part Star Trek: TNG episode where Picard is captured by the Cardassians?

It turns out to have a different spin to it viewed through more modern sensibilities:

In the part of the story set in Cardassia, Picard is subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques by his interrogator Gul Madred , who at first seeks information about the Federation's defense plans for Minos Korva, but instead soon tries to warp Picard's perception of reality by forcing him to see five lights where there are only four lights shining upon him. Initial attempts to appeal to his rights under treaties with the Cardassians fail, as the Federation will not admit Picard is acting on their behalf, making him an enemy combatant. At the conclusion of his enhanced interrogation ,Picard finds that he wants so badly to see five lights that he actually sees five. Fortunately just before he admits that, Cardassian officers come to return Picard to the United Federation of Planets as per a surrender agreement Jellico imposed. Triumphant, Picard shouts his seemingly unbowed defiance to the intelligence officer, but later privately admits to his counselor his moment of weakness. The sequence recalls the exchange between Winston and O'Brien in Orwell 's 1984 in which Winston sees O'Brien display five fingers, when there are in fact only four . The Cardassian interrogator enjoys the company of his daughter in the interrogation room in between enhanced interrogation sessions.

eyebeams noticed how it had evolved.

Comments

[zenten.livejournal.com]

I don't get it. That describes the episode well in terms of how I saw it, except for the 1984 reference, which I didn't catch.

[indefatigable42.livejournal.com]

Same here.

[pyat.livejournal.com]

Well, Picard would have previously been described as "tortured." But what happened to him was actually just "enhanced interrogation," according to the current U.S. government, and perfectly acceptable!

[thebitterguy]

Ding ding ding ding!

[zenten.livejournal.com]

Oh damn, you're right.

[zenten.livejournal.com]

Ok, I get the political statement. I'm not sure that it actually does more good than harm, and it's against wikipedia policy to have that kind of thing in that article, so I reverted it.

Yes, I know, I'm no fun.

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

Cardassia = USA

[thebitterguy]

It's proper terminology.

[thebitterguy]

It's like they were forecasting things in fiction.

I'm kind of ashamed to know your son right now, though.

[zenten.livejournal.com]

Not from the context of the show. For one, Picard is the protagonist, so it should be favouring his terminology over the Cardassians. For another, the term used on the pre-vandalized wikipedia page wasn't even invented when that show was aired, and such an action would have been considered torture under US law. It's also actually arguable if those kinds of actions even are legal in the US, as the president does not have the authority to make it so. Such a legal argument has no place in wikipedia, and even referring to it is off topic.

[zenten.livejournal.com]

Because I don't approve of torture?

[thebitterguy]

Yes, exactly. Because you don't approve of torture.

[thebitterguy]

I'm sure lots of entries include references to terminology that did not exist when the event or item was creates. Are you going to correct all of those too?

[spross.livejournal.com]

The next time I watch the B5 episode Intersections in Real Time where they interrogate Sheridan.

[spross.livejournal.com]

What I meant to say was The next time I watch the B5 episode Intersections in Real Time where they interrogate Sheridan, I'll have to keep this in mind...

[zenten.livejournal.com]

Only if they help propagate torture as being a valid action for a government to perform.

[thebitterguy]

I feel you are missing the core point.

[zenten.livejournal.com]

Ok, enlighten me.

[waiwode.livejournal.com]

Besides, I vastly prefer the episode, which arrives at the end of a chain of events ... the imprisonment and interrogation is causal, not contrived. I honestly found the ST:TNG episode trite, one-dimensional, and strung together on the narrowest of pretences.

Doug.

[absinthe-dot-ca.livejournal.com]

Ironically, Space was just playing this two-parter in the last couple of days in their 6pm (9pm to you Eastern Time Zone folks) Star Trek slot.

I was just mentally comparing-and-contrasting this viewpoint of torture with that of Captain Archer, who shoves a guy into an airlock and starts to decompress it to get the answers he wants (in one of the Season 3 episodes of Enterprise, but I can't quite recall which one, and my Google-Fu is temporarily failing me). Obviously, times have changed.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned "24" so far - the lead character there resorts to torture so often that they had to have Kiefer Sutherland talk to West Point cadets about how torture in real life is a "bad thing".

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

He doesn't watch 24 either. He's a good boy.

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

That is one of the, if not the best, B5 episodes ever.

[thebitterguy]

Wait, you love that show.

[thebitterguy]

I think that's how it came up; eyebeams saw it on the 3 am showing.

I guess the culture of genre shows has changed in the past while. It is odd that no one's brought up 24, since it seems to operate in a fantasy world all its own.

[madmanofprague.livejournal.com]

Currently rewatching B5, that seems to not be particularly difficult.

[madmanofprague.livejournal.com]

I wonder if that makes the Mirror Universe episode some sort of self-parody...

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

Me? I got bored during season one and stopped watching.

I'm only interested in one torturer, and he's a very reluctant one.

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

I think the show is very overrated, but it has its moments. The one with Brad Dourif is very good.

[madmanofprague.livejournal.com]

I'm this close to automatically fast-forwarding through any scenes without the aliens characters. Everyone talks the same.

[absinthe-dot-ca.livejournal.com]

Somehow I doubt the recent holders of the Star Trek reins had enough intelligence and wherewithal to pull that off. It's more likely that it was entirely accidental.

[thebitterguy]

Ahhhh. I just remember you talking about it and then comparing Jack Bauer to a certain Angel star saying "Jack Bauer didn't call up the President and start screaming at him, and he didn't get any sleep either."

That whole anecdote flashed before my eyes.

[thebitterguy]

Yeah, but it has my arch-nemesis Bruce Grey in it.

Oh, Grey, don't think you won't pay.

[madmanofprague.livejournal.com]

Season 4 of Ent had a completely different showrunner. It wasn't amazing tv, but the average episode was more interesting than in the previous three seasons.

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

I don't remember saying that. I know what you're referring to, but I don't recall the quote.

[waiwode.livejournal.com]

An Arch-nemesis? Wow, I've always dreamed of having one of those. The best I've ever managed was a sort of long-standing foe.

Doug.

[thebitterguy]

Considering how ginormously crappy the finale was, the average must have been stupendous.

Plus: CGI Gorn is made of fail.

[thebitterguy]

Even the English guy?

[thebitterguy]

Consider yourself lucky. When Bruce Grey makes your life a living hell, he DOESN'T FUCK AROUND.

[madmanofprague.livejournal.com]

Hilariously, it was written in the 3rd season.

[madmanofprague.livejournal.com]

Especially the english guy.

Beware those who would take away the printed word

[normanrafferty.livejournal.com]

Also in 1984, there was a specific department whose job it was to re-write history books.

The Disinformation Age frightens me.

[zenten.livejournal.com]

Season 4 is not overrated, and season 3 is decent as well.

The problem is you need to watch seasons 1 and 2 to make sense of them.

[zenten.livejournal.com]

Except that would be such a Kirk thing to do.